Rev. Jim Trimble
Just spot on. Thank you forJust spot on. Thank you for these words!
Very Much Agree Jim! ThanksVery Much Agree Jim! Thanks for an awesome and truly inspired and inspiring article Nikki!!
No matter how hard you try toNo matter how hard you try to twist and reinterpret the words of the bible, I dont see how you can possibly argue the overarching message that homosexuality is sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9). Romans 1:26-27). Its not as if we are talking one vague verse that would be up to interpretation. With this said I am accepting of others in ther church with any type of sexual orientation, but this type of defense against the scripture is ridiculous.
Far too many churches-andFar too many churches-and Christians-remain willfully ignorant about what the Bible truly does-and does NOT–say about homosexuality. I would encourage you to take a look at Matthew Vines fine summation of how to look at this subject in the Bible not only with an open heart, but with open eyes, and mind, and Spirit. It is a little over an hour, a presentation that he has been giving to many churches around the country, and is well worth your time to open your heart & understanding. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” -Rev. 2:29
Homosexuality is not sinful.Homosexuality is not sinful. Jesus didn’t condemn it and those clobber passages you referenced are mistranslated and misinterpreted
This view has enough truth toThis view has enough truth to make it believable, but twists many things and contains many errors! The fact that it tries to pass off two different times, years apart, when it talks about two different people both killing a Goliath, as the same event is very misleading. That’s not an error! It was two different points in human history and two different people killing two different people!
If I had the time I could easily correct the errors present within this! Not all of God’s essence is captured in scripture, this is the difference between ‘solo scripturer’ and ‘sola scripturer’ – we don’t hold the Bible ‘solo’ authority, but we do hold it ‘sola’, meaning above all other forms of revelation about God.
They didn’t just change their perspective on circumcision… Jesus died and rose again, fulfilling the law of the old testament and releasing us from living under the old testament law and now instead we live under grace – a new covenant. That is why they were released from old testament laws on circumcision! It wasn’t just that the early church came to a different understanding! It was Jesus’ death and resurrection releasing them from the laws!
Yes, Jesus is absolutely the Word of God, however to claim that the scriptures (the Bible) is not the word of God is rubbish. “You have known the Holy Scriptures ever since you were a little child. They are able to teach you how to be saved by believing in Christ Jesus. God has breathed life into all of Scripture. It is useful for teaching us what is true. It is useful for correcting our mistakes. It is useful for making our lives whole again. It is useful for training us to do what is right. By using Scripture, a man of God can be completely prepared to do every good thing.” (2Ti 3:15-17 NIrV)
I totally agree that we are not called to worship the Bible, but to worship God, however the claims in this article are simply not true!
Keith A. Jenkins, Ph.D.
You say, “If I had the time I could easily correct the errors present within this!” The arrogance of this statement is surpassed only by the inexplicable and callous selfishness of your commenting at all if you aren’t willing to give the time necessary to “correct” what you perceive as “errors” on so important a subject. Luckily, further comment from you is unnecessary, since you clearly know only how to parrot what you have heard from others, but not how to use critically and freely the mind God gave you.
The only response I would offer to your recitation of 2 Timothy 3:15ff as if it were the final word on the subject is that the “scriptures” referred to in the passage are undeniably the Hebrew Scriptures–since what we call the “New Testament” did not exist yet. Doesn’t that undermine just a bit the applicability you wish to press upon it?
A quick word about theA quick word about the Timothy passage? The word “is” doesn’t appear in the original Greek. Instead, there are three words, all in the nominative case (scripture, inspired, profitable) and the connector “kai,” which can be translated “and” or “also.” The KJV and the English translations that follow all have it as “All Scripture is inspired and is profitable . . . ” It can just as accurately be translated “All inspired scripture is also profitable . . . ” I.e., it’s not giving two characteristics of a pre-existing body of writings (they’re inspired, and they’re also profitable). It’s telling you how to recognize inspired writings. (If they’re profitable for doctrine, etc., then they’re inspired.)
Given the context, I actually think the second translation is more likely.
You mean, the ban on idolYou mean, the ban on idol worship applies to the Bible, too?
So John…If it was the deathSo John…If it was the death and resurrection tht released them (us) from the old testament law on circumcision. Who are you to say that it didn’t release them (us) from the old testament law on homosexuality as well?
I find it interesting, sad actually, that people read the whole article and all that mattered to them was the end bit about Homosexuality.
Thankyou, Julian. Though weThankyou, Julian. Though we are called to love one another, thankfully, (as according to Jesus in Matthew 5, I have broken every one of the Ten Commandments) the fact that I sin differently to someone else, be they liar (like me) or LGBT (like friends and family) we have all fallen short of His glory, need his forgiveness and are called to turn from our sin(anything not of God). If we put our partner/ spouse in the place of God and ourselves as an adulterer ( we are the bride of Christ, all sin is adultery) we may gain some idea of how He feels when we play games with what He calls sin. Just as a spelling mistake or disparate idea does not make everything in a blog incorrect, translational issues or the lack in understanding of The Bible, does not change the Truth (truth=what is said lines up with what is done). The Bible is our reference, the Holy Spirit our guide, the love of Jesus our goal. God does not change, from Genesis to Revelation He condemns murderers, liars and sexual sin (often in the same breath/all scripture is God breathed). We all need His forgiveness, whether we want it or not is our choice, we all need His answer, the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, whether we believe it or not, we will all stand before Him in judgement, whether we believe little white lies or LGBT is sin or not. Search the scripture to see if it is so ( Acts 17:11). The Bible does not say we go to hell because of our sin( for all have sinned ) but because we do not turn from our sin and accept the payment for that sin, our savior Jesus. Love you all.
A fun quote from Origin, theA fun quote from Origin, the first Christian systematic theologian:
” . . the aim of the Holy Spirit, who thought it right to give us the divine Scriptures, is not that we might be able to be edified by the letter alone [i.e. the literal truth] or in all cases, since we often discover that the letter is impossible or insufficient in itself because by it sometimes not only irrationalities but even impossibilities are described. But the aim of the Holy Spirit is that we should understand that there have been woven into the visible narrative truths that, if pondered and understood inwardly, bring forth a law useful to men and worthy of God.”
Yes, the first Christian theologian said that the Holy Spirit deliberately put impossibilities into the Scriptures so we wouldn’t be tempted to take them literally.
Hi Keith,Hi Keith,
With two children under 15 months old and a job that at present makes work/life balance near impossible, sadly I don’t have the time to correct all the errors I saw. It is not an arrogant statement – even though you wished to interpret it that way.
Keith, you are correct in knowing that many Christians simply parrot what they hear and I am often heard to wish that more Christians would love God with their brains as well as the rest of their being. I certainly am not one to simply parrot what I hear. I do, however, thoughtfully consider what I hear and allow the Bible to be my primary source of revelation “sola scripturer” and then allow it to be the test by which I interpret secondary sources of revelation. Unfortunately you don’t know me enough to make the call on whether or not I critically and freely use my mind, however, judge away 🙂 You’re judgement without knowledge is incorrect – I certainly critically and freely use the mind God gave me.
While I completely agree that Paul was referring to the Hebrew scriptures, I believe this extends to the whole canon of scripture. My thought on this is taken on the faith belief that the whole Bible is the Holy Spirit inspired word of God and this thought is support and influenced by the writings of many theologians throughout history and including a current living one in Michael Kruger http://michaeljkruger.com/
Now in the Bible at 1 Kings 7Now in the Bible at 1 Kings 7.23 it says:
“Then he made the molten sea; it was round, ten cubits from brim to brim, and five cubits high. A line of thirty cubits would encircle it completely.”
Prove that this is factual.
Sandbur, it looks like youSandbur, it looks like you are asking us to prove that a big metal wash bowl with mathematically correct measurements is factual…? Why wouldn’t it be? Is there something I’m missing?
Surely the point is that ifSurely the point is that if the bowl had a diameter of ten cubits then a line of thirty cubits wouldn’t encircle it completely. It would take a line of over 31.4 cubits. The Bible declaring π to be 3 doesn’t make it so.
Claiming π is 3 is notClaiming π is 3 is not mathematically correct!
A line of 30 cubits would not encircle it.
The line would have to be over 31.4 cubits long.
Great article. And it isGreat article. And it is just fine to begin with a defense of your theology – I think they call it apologesis.
When I was young, my church taught that the laity should not read the Bible because they were not trained to interpret it. Hmmmm. Talk about controlling how we read scripture, and thus, how we understnad God!. You did not take this thought to its logical conclusion, which in my view, is; the attempt to control how another understands God is the attempt, in fact, to be God. This is like the zoo keeper who would control the lion in your story. As for me, I choose to know, love and understnad God in accord with my relationship every day with god – which includes scripture, but also, my experience, my intellect and my tradition.
Yes, my theology is Wesleyan, but, it is also universalist in that each person’s jounrney to and with God is their own which may be guided by the wisdom, knowledge and experience of another – but, should never be controlled.
Nikki, your proposition isNikki, your proposition is very intellectually stimulating. I agree that there often seem to be contradictions in scripture. We do however need to consider not just text but also revelation by God (Holy Spirit). Just because we fail to understand what seems to be contradictions, does not mean that realistic or logical answers lack existence. It means we need more study and prayer. What a concept. God is challenging his people to look deeper. How exciting! Some scriptures that seem like contradictions may have answers that are lost to antiquity (lost meaning due to culture/context/words or meanings that have dropped out of Hebrew/Greek languages. The frustrating thing is that people (not referring to you) too often want to throw all scripture out when they do not have easy/fast answers to questions that they have. I also encourage everyone reading this that the Bible will not answer every question that can be conceived. It tells us what we need to know. Such answers, I believe exist but we may simply have to be patient and wait to receive them when we get to heaven. qqgci
Rev. Skip Jordan
The folks who seem to haveThe folks who seem to have all the answers about what the Bible means-for everybody-are reminiscent of the Gnostics, who held that special knowledge was required to understand God. To say that yours is the only correct interpretation is collossally ignorant, not to mention prideful. All humanity is the same-no one has more knowledge about God than anyone else. We must listen to, and learn from, each other to deepen our understanding of who God is and how God works in today’s world. As a hospital chaplain my understanding of God has been deepened and enriched by listening to how others understand Who God is. I see God speaking to me through these, and other experiences, things that would not happen if I believed God could only be found in the Bible.I know I don’t have all of the answers and never will, but I’m always ready to listen and discuss.
The phrase “inspired by God”The phrase “inspired by God” is a translation of one Greek word meaning “God-breathed”.
The English word “inspired” is a transliteration of the Latin which translates this Greek word with “inspirata” meaning “to breathe into”.
Know what else was “God Breathed”? Adam and Eve. Far from perfect or inerrant wouldn’t you agree?
Where the bible say toWhere the bible say to welcome unrepentant sinners into the Church.
Circumcision and lgbt issues have nothing in common as Paul states clearly that circumcision is not necessary for salvation.
Can you cite where he suggests that lgbt persons can be saved apart from faith and repentance, as with any other person?
This is the problem with articles like this, you open up a can of worms and confuse the whole deal. Is anything sin? I can just as well say no if we are to know embrace homosexuality.
I have never commented on aI have never commented on a page of any kind but saw this and thought I might comment on one idea. Here is some food for thought. The statement that there are two differing accounts of the creation of mankind is based on the statement that Adam was formed out of the dust of the earth where the shrubs and trees had yet to grow not taking into account that in the next few verses the text says that God moved Adam to a garden He had planted. One can only conclude that God had already thought up designed and created in mature form the herb of the field, shrubs and trees before he had created man. It is interesting though that is seems quite evident that this mature garden was just a small part of the earth and had everything necessary to support the life of mankind. The rest of the earth had been planted but had yet to grow into maturity. I would conclude then that both creation accounts agree but that the one in Gen. 2 gives us a little more information about the total surface of the earth at the time of the making of man. Just something to think about.
This is quite possibly theThis is quite possibly the most absurd “theology” I have ever heard. There is such a thing as absolute truth and it is found in the Bible. The Bible is inerrant as it IS the Words of God. Your use of John 1:1 to refute this is astounding and terrible exegetical work.
To deny the inerrancy of Scripture is to open to a host of issues that allow for relativism and the picking and choosing of what is right in the Bible and what is not.
The Holy Spirit is not limited if the Bible is the end all be all, I am not even sure how you can possibly begin to make that as an honest claim.
The way I was taughtThe way I was taught Christianity you either go full hog and believe it all, or don’t bother with it. Since I had many experiences, most not positive, I think that it is better to be honest with yourself and pick something that suits you. At least Wiccans and Shintos don’t condemn you if youre not one of them. Christians that stay in the religion/relationship and don’t believe everything are doing themselves a disservice.
Nikki, thank you for puttingNikki, thank you for putting scripture references. 2 Samuel 21:19 tells us Elhanan killed Goliath’s brother not Goliath.
I do not expect most here toI do not expect most here to change their minds, but the writer is wrong about the inerrancy of the Bible – the true Bible.
The example of God or Satan moving David to number the children of Israel (2 Sam.24:1 and 1 Chron. 21:1) is easy to explain. God was judging Israel – “the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel” and he used Satan to move upon David to number the people. Compare the book of Job and how God used Satan.
As for who killed Goliath, the King James Bible (and many others) got it right. The fake bibles did not.
Who killed Goliath?
And Nikki Hardeman is missing the whole point and not reading or believing what the text actually says in Genesis 1 and 2.
The Creation accounts in Genesis chapter One and Genesis chapter Two – Is there a Contradiction?
The King James Bible is always right and it IS the inerrant words of God.
Actually, the phrase, “the
Actually, the phrase, “the brother of” in 2 Samuel 21:19 is not in the Hebrew text; it was added at the privilege of the translator… which is why, in the King James version, you’ll fine that phrase in italics. It’s at attempt by the translator to get the Bible to agree with the Bible… The author of this blogpost presents 2 Samuel 21:19 accurately.
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