Clobbering "Biblical" Gay Bashing

By The Rev. Mark Sandlin
Christianity and “Biblical” Hatefulness
We Christians are good at a lot of things. Helping others. Dressing up on Sunday. Quoting scripture. Pot luck meals. Taking care of church members. Weddings. Funerals. Worship. But perhaps the thing at which we are the most persistently exceptional is misinterpreting the Bible then running amuck in the world because of it. Honestly, mad skills. And history backs me up on this one.
We have used the Bible to support, promote and act upon some pretty un-Christian things: slavery, holocaust, segregation, subjugation of women, apartheid, the Spanish Inquisition (which, no one ever expects), domestic violence, all sorts of exploitation and the list could go on and on. Oddly, if you ask theologians to pick one biblical theme to rule them all, most of them would say “love”... well, love and grace. Okay, love, grace and forgiveness. Fine. They probably would not specifically agree on a single term, but they would most likely name something that is, in every way, the opposite of the oppression, belittlement, hatred and marginalization represented by the numerous atrocities committed by the Christian Church.
More times than not, these atrocities are the result of trying to play God, pretending as if one group of people has complete knowledge of God's will and is more blessed or chosen by God. Not surprisingly, the people who see the world this way are always exactly the people who also happen to belong in the group they believe to be the uber-blessed. Lucky them.
Time and time again, Jesus made it clear that we should not put ourselves in the place of playing God and that, unlike far too many humans, God welcomes and loves us all equally. Period.
But we keep doing it. We keep doing it even though each time after we argue, name-call, suppress others and fight for centuries, falsely playing the role of heavenly judge and jury, we slowly realize that we got it wrong. We realize that, in fact, Paul was not promoting slavery. We learn to contextualize his statements and letters. We become more skilled at interpreting the original Greek and, over time, we decide to stop quoting the Bible to support slavery (or the subjugation of women, or racism, etc.) because we finally come around to realizing that, as Rob Bell's book points out, biblically love wins. Always.
And so we find ourselves here again. Doing the thing we do best: misinterpreting the Bible and ruining lives with it. We are, once again, ignoring the biblical bias for those who are marginalized, abused, belittled and negatively judged. Ignoring the biblical directive to show all the children of God love (and grace... and forgiveness).
Hate By Any Other Name
Oh sure, this time around we have “softened” our approach, saying things like “hate the sin, love the sinner,” but we fail to recognize that what we are calling a “sin” and the person we are calling a “sinner” are one and the same. A person whose sexual orientation is homosexual, or bi-sexual, or queer can no more separate themselves from their sexuality than a heterosexual person can. It's like saying “hate the toppings, love the pizza.” It's just not the pizza without the toppings. We just aren't loving the person if we don't love the whole person.
I suspect the “softening” of the language we use has everything to do with making us feel better and very little with making LGBTQ folk feel better, because it certainly doesn't make them feel any better. As a matter of fact, the love/hate (emphasis on hate) relationship that the Church continues to push on this group of people only serves to push them into closets and into even darker places, which sometimes leads to suicide. The Church and its approach to this issue are at fault for most of the hurt, anguish, self-doubt, abuse and death associated with being LGBTQ. Not very loving. Not very grace filled. But it certainly leaves us in need of forgiveness.
Many Christians have lost their way in this twisty, turny maze of how to practice our faith. We would much rather reinforce the things we want to believe than believe the sometimes difficult teachings of Jesus. Who, on a side note, never said a word about homosexuality but did tell us to gouge out our lustful eyes. Which seems to me is more likely to leave us all blind than the “eye for and eye” thing.
The Bible As A Sex Manual
So, as others have pointed out before, we use the Bible as if it is a sex manual, telling us what is and isn't acceptable in the eyes of the Lord your God. Thereby delineating out those whom it is okay for us to judge, and toward whom it is okay to direct all kinds of nastiness and holier-than-thouisms.
The reality is that the Bible is not a sex manual. I know, shocker. Right? Actually, it's a good thing (depending on your particular level of sexual prudishness – personally, compared to the Bible, mine is pretty high). You see, the Bible not only promotes marriage between a man and a woman, but it insists that that marriage be within the same faith. Not only should a wife be subordinate (Ephesians 5:22), but she should also prove her virginity... lest she be stoned (Deuteronomy 22:20-21). Oh, and the whole thing would probably be much better if it were arranged (Genesis 24:37-38). And that's just the warm up act.
According to the Bible, if a woman's husband dies and she hasn't had a son, she must marry his brother and have intercourse with him until she has a son (Mark 12:18-27). Sometimes, biblically wives are good, but concubines are better. Many of the “men of God” were not only married, but at least three of them had more than one concubine (Abraham, Caleb, Solomon) and they remained “men of God.” But like I said, “biblically wives are good” and there's no such thing as too much of a good thing. Right? So, why not have many wives? God frequently blessed polygamists (Esau, Jacob, Gideon, David, Solomon, Belshazzar).
As far as sexuality and the Bible's perspective on woman as property and as slaves... well, as you can imagine, it does not get any better.
Making Choices
The point is this: most of us have matured enough theologically to recognize that we need to contextualize the writings of the Bible, and because of it we have moved passed using these examples as the end-all-be-all on acceptable practices of sexuality. However, somehow, we have not managed to apply the very same understanding to the Bible verses that have become known as the “clobber verses” in the Bible. “Clobber" because they are the verses most used to clobber people who are gay or who support gay rights.
That is really interesting when you consider that, of all the topics I just mentioned, sexual orientation is the only one that is not a choice. Polygamy, concubines, marrying your brother's widow? All choices, and we have decided to “get over” the biblical directives for them. Sexual orientation? Not a choice. (There are those who still argue otherwise, but the science is clear, so I'm not even having that discussion). So many Christians just aren't able to get past that one. Equally interesting to consider: it is actually more of a choice to judge and marginalize people over being homosexual, or, bi-sexual, or queer; than it is a choice to be homosexual, or, bi-sexual, or queer. Yet we judge them and not ourselves.
Since we clearly have a difficult time letting go of the clobber verses, let's take them one by one and very briefly consider what is really going on in them. It should help us arrive at a clearer picture of what the writers of these scriptures were trying to tell us. What we will find is this: as we get caught up in judging others over what we want the verses to say, we miss the opportunity to understand how to be the people God is calling us to be.
As we get started, we all need to be on the same page on one thing. When the Bible was written, the earth was flat, the sun orbited the earth and the idea of a person having a sexual 'orientation' was completely foreign. There is some debate about who actually kick-started the understanding of sexual orientation (Heinrich Hoessli or Karl Heinrich Ulrich - personally, I am on Team Heinrich), but it is clear that the concept of people having a sexual orientation was first introduced in the 1800's making it a thoroughly modern construct.
Clearly, there are a few Bible verses that involve same-sex acts (and of those, almost all of them are male-male sex), but given the modern advent of recognizing the existence of sexual orientation, we must accept the reality that the writers of those verses were in no way trying to, let alone capable of, acknowledging, understanding and addressing homosexual orientation. What then, might they have been trying to tell us in the clobber verses? Let's take a look.
The Clobber Verses
Let me just say right off the top, three of the verses that are sometimes considered clobber verses have nothing to do with the question of homosexuality. Putting Genesis 2:21-25, Deuteronomy 23:17 and Jude 1:6-7 in the category of anti-gay verses is nothing more than an attempt to beef up the number of verses that are supposedly “against” homosexuality. They have nothing to do with it. So, I am simply going to ignore them. If someone attempts to use them as proof of the “abomination” of homosexuality, I suggest you simply ignore them as well.
The great thing about defending the Bible against people who want to use Genesis 19:1-11 to gay bash is that you really don't have to do any work. The Bible does it for you. For better or for worse, this is also the verse with which the general population is probably most familiar in terms of what they think of as verses about homosexuality. Even the term “sodomy” is linked to this Bible passage.
It is the story of two travelers (messengers from God) being given shelter by Lot and his family. Hospitality was a very big deal in those days. In this story, the men of Sodom decided to approach Lot's home and to make less than hospitable demands on him and his guest. To get a sense of how important hospitality was, when the men of the town say they want to force themselves (most likely sexually) on Lot's guest, Lot actually offers up his daughters instead. Despicable, deplorable, a great way to permanently damage your relationship with your daughters and the rest of your family (to say the least), but a sure sign that hospitality was a big deal.
In the end, the men of the town did not get what they wanted. They wanted to exert their dominance of the guests. They wanted to humiliate them, as warriors after conquering a foe might do in those days, sexually putting another male into the position of a woman (who after all was thought of as property, as weak, and as soft and therefore less than a man).
Even though the men never actually exerted their power over Lot's guests in a male-male sex act, people still insist on using this text as proof that homosexuality is an “abomination.” Well, like I said, “the great thing about defending the Bible against people who want to use Genesis 19:1-5 to gay bash is that you really don't have to do any work. The Bible does it for you.”
Sodom is referenced multiple times in the Bible as an example of great sinning. And what might that sin be?
In Isaiah 1:10-17 it is thought to be injustice, not rescuing the oppressed, defending the orphan, pleading for the widow. In Jeremiah 23:14 it is adultery. In Ezekiel 16:48-49 it is the sin of not aiding the “poor and needy.” In Zephaniah 2:8-11 the sin is bullying, boasting and pride. In the Wisdom of Solomon it is “the bitter hatred of strangers.”
The sin is not about being gay. It is not about non-straight sexual orientation. The sin of Sodom was lacking hospitality, not being just, bullying, hating strangers, not caring for those marginalized. Funny, they are all things Churches (and individuals for that matter) sorely need to keep in mind and be better at practicing when it comes to how we do or do not welcome LGBTQ folk into our lives. After all, in today's society, who is more marginalized, more bullied, more treated like a “stranger,” than them? Come to think of it, not so funny.
If someone were to canonize a buzz-kill, it would look remarkably, and uncomfortably, like the book of Leviticus. Honestly, this three-thousand plus year old holiness code is not exactly a big ball of fun. For starters, just try reading it. On second thought, I like you, so don't. Fortunately for you, I've done it for you. (I know, nice. Right? I'm just that kind of guy).
Among the jewels you'll find in it are a mandate to kill disobedient children, a dietary restriction to not eat shellfish (God Hates Shrimp!), a law that would prevent bowl-cuts (or “rounding off the side-growth of your heads” – and to think I liked the Beatles), direction to not touch or eat the flesh of a pig (no bacon and cheddar soup for you!), and a prohibition on the rhythm method of birth control (you know who you are!). Oh, and presumably, gay sex (which, of course, is why I bring it up).
The section of Leviticus where we find the clobber verses is often called the Purity Code. “Purity” was mostly about two things. First, it was about keeping things the way they “should” be. “Should” is in quotes because the guidelines they used for what should and shouldn't be were mostly made up. Said differently, they arrived at their conclusions in a time that didn't have any science or at least not science like we have today. Which is to say, they didn't have any science.
What they had was mostly superstition based on observation. A big part of this purity code was the idea that the world is consistent or follows particular preset rules. For the Israelites this meant things like: all fish have fins, animals with divided hooves chew cud, and male sperm contains the whole of life (women provided the incubation chamber). When things didn't adhere to this particular three-thousand year old way of understanding the world, they were considered an abomination or more precisely impure.
The second thing the purity code did was define the Israelites as purely not Canaanites. That is, much like many Christians receive the mark of a cross on their forehead on Ash Wednesday or give something up for Lent, the codes in Leviticus helped define the people of Israel as the people of Israel. For the Israelites it was particularly meant to define them as not Canaanites. Basically, it's a way of showing “we are not them.”
It is true that there are other reasons for many of the laws (just like there are many other reasons to give something up for Lent), but these are two of the larger ones, and they are ones that most directly apply to these clobber verses.
So what do we, presumably enlightened Christians of a scientific age, do with this code? Clearly shrimp are good to eat (for most of us). For that matter, as far as I'm concerned, to borrow from an old Benjamin Franklin quote, they are proof that God loves us* – that's just how darned delicious they are.
What we do is recognize Leviticus for what it was: a good thing for the people of God based on how they understood the world some three-thousand years ago. Interestingly enough, when it comes to things like shellfish, eating and touching pigs, cutting our sideburns and beards, and stoning children who mouth off to their parents, we have already managed to do exactly that. Why? Because we understand that they are just flat out silly laws. Not all “fish” have fins. Some come in the shape of pink commas and are delicious with a nice Riesling. Because not all split hooved animals chew cud. Some roll around in the mud and make breakfast just that much better. For that matter, wrap them around a shrimp, throw them on the grill. I promise you, God will not smite you and once you bite into them you'll agree, they are not an abomination (they might, however taste slightly “impure” if you do not devein them well).
What many people have not been able to do is extend that simple understanding to these clobber verses. We have already established that it would have been impossible for these texts, or any biblical text, to be about sexual orientation. However, they do clearly describe a male-male sex act (sorry ladies, this one's just for the guys). But what we have to begin to understand is that the issues which these specific laws presumed to address within their society, much like the other laws I've mentioned here, are no longer recognized as true.
Scholars have pointed to various reasons for ancient Israel's seeing male-male sex as taboo in Leviticus. It may be the same reason the rhythm method was thought to be wrong in the eyes of God, which presumably is that, as I have mentioned, they thought sperm contained the whole of life (how typically male-dominated-society of them). Therefore, in their way of seeing it, “Every sperm is sacred. Every sperm is great. If a sperm gets wasted, God gets quite irate.” On the other hand, it may be that they thought it was taboo because it went against their understanding that mixing of kinds, just like the mixing of two kinds of cloth was taboo. Male-male sexual relationships, in that way of seeing things, mixes up their understanding of gender roles.
Whatever the reason, the perspective in these clobber verses were based on an understanding of sex and sexuality that was just as misinformed as their understanding of the earth in relationship to the sun, of fish, of pork and of reasons for stoning children. In our scientific age, it is time to let go of archaic perspectives and start recognizing the things that are truly an abomination in the eyes of God: lacking in compassion and love, exercising judgment against others, and practicing and encouraging hate.
(*The actual quote attributed to Benjamin Franklin is, “Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” Sadly, while Ben most probably enjoyed a mug of beer from time to time, the actual quote is, “Behold the rain which descends from heaven upon our vineyards, there it enters the roots of the vines, to be changed into wine, a constant proof that God loves us, and loves to see us happy.” In a happy coincidence, the same rains nourish the barley and hops that are changed into beer. In an even happier coincidence, wine and beer both pair exceptionally well with shrimp. God is good).
Good news ladies! Up until now, all of this clobbering has been about the guys. In Romans, you get to join in. Lucky you.
Romans is the one place the Bible speaks specifically about a female-female sex act. If you listen to Bible Thumpin' Gay Bashers, you'd be surprised to learn that, while the counts vary on how many places the Bible directly address heterosexual relationships, it is a lot. Then again, compared to the precisely one verse the Bible has about female-female sex, even two is one hundred percent more.
The number of heterosexually oriented verses isn't exactly clear. One thing is really clear, there's plenty of them and, much like the Levitical purity code, we've managed to ignore many of them. So, if you aren't also denouncing the divorced, then get off your lesbian judging high-horse, because otherwise you are just picking and choosing who to judge out of your own accord, and then quoting the one Bible verse that seems to support your choice. And even then, as we will see, it doesn't actually support your argument. It actually does just the opposite.
In Romans, we have the most extensive discussion of same-sex intercourse in the Bible, a whole two seemingly specific verses – astounding.
There are plenty of approaches to understanding what Paul is trying to teach us in these texts. Any good exegesis ultimately points to the reality that what Paul is talking about and what people who use these verses as clobber verses want Paul to be talking about aren't the same thing. That is, this is not about homosexual people having consenting homosexual relationships.
One convincing analysis of these texts looks at the fact that one of the most prevalent forms of same-sex sex in the Greco-Roman world was male prostitution which frequently involved boys. In that analysis, the texts become a condemnation of pederasty and prostitution, things of which most Christians (conservative to liberal) disapprove even today. There is also the perspective that Paul's pointing to same sex intercourse as being idolatrous could be referring to the practices of priests and priestesses of Mediterranean fertility gods who regularly practiced that type of prostitution but elevated it, within a religious context, to the state of idolatry. Those approaches are valid and mostly convincing perspectives, but they do require a small leap of logic to arrive at their conclusions. Much less of a leap of logic, mind you, than believing that these texts are about something of which people at that time had absolutely no comprehension, but slight conjecture all the same.
The analysis that I find the most convincing concerns itself with the word “natural.” It is the word that has led many to speak of LGBTQ behavior as “unnatural” acts even though they occur throughout nature (in one study they were found in more than fifteen-hundred species).
As it turns out, the word is actually not “natural.” Not surprisingly, Paul did not speak English. While Paul performed a number of miraculous things, speaking English (which wasn't around even in its earliest Prehistoric Old English form yet) was not one of them. Not to bore you too much, but the word Paul used was the Greek word, physikos. (Now that didn't hurt too much, did it?).
It's important to know the word in Greek because when it is translated into English, it loses a little of its original meaning. Without even knowing it, Lady GaGa has provided a better modern and contextual translation of physikos than the frequently used translation of “normal.” We will get to that in a minute. It doesn't mean “natural” or “nature” so much as it means “produced by nature.” Those who use these verses as clobber verses tend to understand “natural” to mean something closer to “normal” than “produced by nature.” Not surprisingly, they also then define what is and isn't “normal” based on their personal biases rather than on science or the reality of the world around them (e.g.: “I think gay people make me feel creepy, so I henceforth do hereby dub it as an act of not-natural.”).
In reality, physikos has more to do with how things naturally occur in God's Creation. At this point, you may have begun to guess that physikos is based on the same root word from which we get the word “physics” which is, of course, the study of the realities of nature. Conveniently, the way Paul uses physikos here in Romans, it also means something very similar to “the realities of nature.” It is concerned with what is of our nature and not with what is defined as acceptable. That is to say, Paul is concerned with how God created something or someone to be. He is concerned with people going against their nature or in the words of Lady GaGa herself, if they are “born that way” he's concerned with them behaving as if they were not.
That is the sin here in Romans, acting against the very nature of who God created you to be. In this case he seems to be addressing the idea of a same-sex sex act in which at least one of the two are not attracted to someone of the same sex; they just are not born that way.
Understood this way, it would be equally sinful for someone who is only attracted to someone of the same sex to have sex with someone of the opposite sex. It goes against their nature; they just weren't born that way. Ironically, those telling LGBTQ folk that these verses mean they have to stop being LGBTQ folk are actually telling them to commit the very sin against which these verses warn, going against their nature. God has a wicked sense of humor.
Because these texts have been used so much to address homosexuality, it was important to address the issue directly, but the worst thing we could do is to think it is primarily about homosexuality. It is not.
Immediately following verse 28, Paul provides an extensive list of sins. It is so extensive that we all fall into at least one of the categories. “So there you have it,” says Paul, “we all sin. Don't try to deny it.” And let's face it, we all go against who we know we were created to be. How many times have you done something, felt guilt or shame, and then said, “I shouldn't have done that. That's not who I am.”?
As Paul says in the very next chapter, "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” As he also says to start that chapter, “Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.”
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 & 1 Timothy 1:9-10
So, remember back a few paragraphs ago when we talked about a Greek word? And remember how it didn't even hurt one little bit? Good. We are going to do it again.
I have put the 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy clobber verses together because they both use a particular Greek word in a particularly similar way. The word is arsenokoitēs and it means “male prostitute.” (Behold the Greek scholarship. See that it is good and rejoice). Actually, it could also mean “the customer of a male prostitute,” or “boy molester” or “someone who abuses themselves with a man” or “using sexual manipulation to acquire money” or … (eh hem, “Behold the great and powerful Greek Interpretation!” <insert flashing light and crashing thunder>).
So, the word in these two verses, that is frequently interpreted as “homosexual” (which is absurd because, in Greek, it is clearly only a word referring to men) or “sodomite” (which is absurd, among other reasons, because that was not the sin of Sodom, as we have already discussed), is really difficult to translate. Why? In part, because it is only found in these two places and also, in part, because it is entirely possible that it is a made up word. It is very likely that Greek speaking Jews created this word to port a Hebrew word to Greek and over time the meaning has been lost. So, it is just hard to translate. So difficult, in fact, that scholars can't agree on a single best translation. What most biblical Greek scholars can agree on is that it is not meant to be a blanket statement about a male-male sex act. Moving on.
There is another word used in 1 Corinthians 6:9: malakos. The good news about this word is that it is found in lots of literature, so there are plenty of references about its typical intended meaning. It literally means “soft.” Some say it means “soft” as in “effeminate, but not in terms of sexual orientation.” Others, say it is connected with being wasteful of sexual and financial resources. Still others convincingly point to it singling out a particular type of male prostitution involving young boys. Also in the list of contenders: sexual perverts, sodomites, weaklings, the self-indulgent. (“Behold the great and powerful Greek Interpretation!” <insert flashing light and crashing thunder>). Like with arsenokoitēs there really is no expert consensus on this.
Malakos was a word that could be used to refer to things as diverse as men who were weak in battle (or who were “soft”), to men who lived extravagant and pampered lives (or who were... well, “soft”). It was not specifically about sexual relationships. If Paul was actually trying to describe something about a submissive male in a male-male relationship (which is still not the same as homosexuality as we understand it today), it's very likely that he would have used kinaedos, which was frequently used to describe that very relationship. But he didn't. So, stop acting like he was.
Clobbered
In summary of my look at the Christian Church's use of the clobber verses, if you want to call homosexuality a sin, go ahead. But you are going to have to admit that it is not biblically a sin. Which means you are also going to have to admit that you are calling it a sin simply because that's what you want to do. Because of that, you are going to have to admit that you are a sinner for using God's name for false pretenses (it's a little thing we like to call using God's name in vain). And then, Paul has something to tell you, “...you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things.” (Romans 2:1).
_________________
Author's Note: This is a bit long for a blog post, but some may find it to be a helpful resource. I wrote the piece for another project and it just wasn't a good fit. Honestly, if you are well read on the issue of the Bible and its take on homosexuality (or lack thereof), there is little new in here. For you, I hope this can be a quick reference. If you are not well read on such things, this may be a bit of a bumpy ride, but bumpy rides can be a lot of fun. Either way, I hope I was able to take what is sometimes thick reading, albeit important reading, and make it at least bearable and mostly straight forward.
Mark Sandlin currently serves as the minister at Vandalia Presbyterian Church in Greensboro, NC and blogs at The God Article. He received his M. Div. from Wake Forest University's School of Divinity and has undergraduate degrees in Business Administration and English with a minor in Computer Science. He's an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church (USA). He invites you to take the Until ALL Can Wed Pledge.
This article is available as a free PDF download here.










Comments
Misquoting Jesus
There is a book called Misquoting Jesus that Bible thumpers should read. It really opened my eyes.
Thank you SO much for this:D
Thank you SO much for this:D My boyfriend of forever recently read those verses thanks to a homophobe highlighting them for him in some religious books. He was pretty freaked out as I sort of made sure he didn't know there was all that gay bashing in the bible, but then I showed him this blog and he felt a lot better. You helped me avoid a breakup or an upset lover!!!!:D
Misdirection
With all due respect to the article and comments, I have to say that, as an arguement, this article is another piece of misdirection from the political/theological left. Rev. Sandlin's entire arguement rests on "sexual orientation is the only one that is not a choice" - a rhetorical red herring. Almost no one, on either side of the arguement, believes that literally - "choice". Even the folks who would argue "Behavior is a choice" wouldn't, in any majority, argue that homosexuality is a choice. To continue to make and arguement against something no one is saying is misdirection. Never mind the fact that, at least with current science, Sandlin's assertion is based on his opinion. Science may see some as yet unclear genetic link to homosexuality, but they also see links to serial killing and over-eating and all manner of behaviors. It is his opinion.
Another falacious foundation for the article is these words "hate" and "bashing". Folks on the left only use it for a political/rhetorical advantage. It is not one drop sincere. Its like talking about American racism and using the KKK as your example. Maybe most Americans do deal with some personal racism, but it is a far cry from REAL hatred. Ask yourself, of all the Christians you know, is hatred their response to homosexuals? Not "fear" or "reticence" or "misunderstanding" but "Hate"? If you find yourself continually arguing against Rev. Phelps and his loonies, then ask yourself, are you avoiding making a real arguement? Most of my Christian friends would say, "I don't hate gay people, but I want to conform my life to God's command and not to my own understanding." In that respect, the textual analysis does more good than the insulting "close-minded" language. If a Christian speaks out against adultery, we don't say, "He hates adulterers." What about folks who aren't tithing? Are we hating them or just reminding them of God's commandments?
As a committed Christian and a man with a life full of loving homosexual friends and family, I would love to hear a genuine, honest, critical discussion of this issue at some point but I am, sadly, coming to the conclusion that people have taken political sides and such a discussion will never happen. Right wind nutjobs keep yelling, "God hates fags!" and left wingers argue their opinion and say, "If you disagree, you obviously are a hater/homophobe."
The truth might set us all free but we are scared to death of it.
And by the way, most of those cultural horrors that Sandlin lists - slavery et al - were brought to an end when Christian people stood up and said, "In the name of Jesus, this is wrong and must be stopped."
Love and Hate
Basically Love is Love & may the church go to hell.
What religion has done and continues to do has left me with little faith, & in today's world faith is a necessity. I look to the future when we can be who we are and not who or what others want us to be.
I loved this article but it has not alleviated my fears about the future but I pray that commonsense prevails for the future LGBT's of the world.
LOVE IS LOVE
WbuFvpgprvipgZD
I loved your article post. Fantastic.
Judge Leon M. Bazile, in
Judge Leon M. Bazile, in support of the law against miscegenation stated, in 1959,
"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."
How is today any different? Funny how intelligent people can interpret the words written thousands of years ago in an archaic language, by ancient men to mean that it is okay...nay... their right in the name of their lord... for them to spew hatred.
I was once one of those self-righteous, arrogant christians, but I have been "saved". I am personally in full agreement with this post and Rev. Sandlin. For those who disagree with me, that's okay. God loves you, too. I, for one, am not interested in your dogma. It means nothing to me.
Another Way to Look At It Is This:
Whether one can bring himself or herself to reconcile homosexuality with Christianity or not, (s)he needs to realize one thing: hating homosexuals just drives us away from you. I am personal proof of that.
I have personally come a long way since the torture of conversion therapy 18 years ago, but your proverbial hell will freeze over before I set foot in another church again. I joined Believe Out Loud because I need to be able to make peace of some sort with all the horrible crimes done against me in the name of religion. I can see in this comment section right here, that while we have come a long way, we still have a long way to go toward building bridges between religious people and the LGBT community. I hope, next time, no matter your personal feelings about the queer community, you stop and THINK: I just might be making this person turn away from the church forever.
On a side note, though- I thank the bigots from my past, actually. Despite the hardships, they were the catalyst for my path to atheism, which is a much better path for me than Fundamentalist Christianity. However, the way to make people into better Christians, is NOT to hate on them. I thank the good folks here at Believe Out Loud for accepting EVERYONE AS THEY ARE.
thank you so much.
I have been on a spiritual journey most of my young life as an agnostic christian. Over the last few years I have put down mans translation of the word of god. And I have turned directly to HIM. And through prayer HE has shown me to you. Thank you. I once again have felt the holy spirit move within me again. For those I have spat at here I stand ashamed before god as a gay man who turned to hate his enemies instead of trying to love them. God forgive me for the cruel words I have used. As a reminder to everyone who reads this. There is room for everyone in God house that he has prepared for us ALL. Stop your BS and love first with out condition as HE has.
Please oh Lord come and embrace those who hat us with your words and show them the love you have for us all. In your name amen.
Ps while your here show them that divorce is still adultly.lol just saying.
Holy Spirit lead you here
Chris
My dear friend
Yes the Holy Spirit lead you here, to read the truth not to agree with sinful doers.
The true Christians knows not hate, but the Fathers love, and has the responsibility of leading the lost child to the Father for their redemption.
Ask yourself why the article had no mention abour our Lord God investigating Sodom Himself before the men of Soddom stood before Abrahams door?
Deceit and lies are of the wicked one,the Devil!
The sin of sexual immorality was so greiveous and the cry so great He had to come Himself to see if the men of Sodom had done what was said to been done.
You cannot live in sin and be with our Lord Jesus Christ.
This His word tells you.
If you love Him he will give you a path for you to follow so you can be with Him.
He is forever faithful to those who ask for forgiveness in His name and receive the precious Holy Spirit. You are His child and His Spirit dwells within you to help you mature in the Fathers wisdom and knowledge and strength so that you may become Sons of God, for His joy and pleasure only, and not what the world wants you to be.
It is not the sin that seperates mankind from Him but the continuing of the sin and the blindness of His word the Truth.
The writings of the Truth is that path.
Peace be with you
Thank you for this. I hate
Thank you for this. I hate when people tell me I chose to be gay. I didn't. I was born this way, and if you really believe that God makes no mistakes, then stop treating gay people like they're a mistake. Also, I find it sad how many of the comments just on the first page are full of hate.
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’" (Matt. 22:35-39, NIV)
Call From The Highest Mountain!
My dear friend
You say that you were born that way? Are you TS or TG?
I don't know why you see yourself as hated when you are talking about your spiritual life?
Didn't you know that our Lord Jesus Christ loves all His children and His children loves all as He does?
It is within the true Christian to tell the Truth to all who have been deceived or are headed that way.
This is out of love for the individual not hate.
You being a Christian must put away sin completely out of your life. The Bible is very clear about what sin is and sexual immorality is a sin.
If you don't involve no one but you, then I feel that you should pray and talk to your Father in Heaven and through the Holy Spirit have strength to conquor what is ungoddly in His eyes so you will be able to be blameless at His second coming.
If you think you are not sinning then you are calling our God, Lord Jesus Christ gay.
That my friend is calling Him sinful and you are well deceived.
To be so quick on talking about His Love like everyone deserves it is being blind to the truth. And forever this will hold true!!!
I John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth rightousness is rightous,even as he is rightous.
John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he was born of God.
John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest. and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not rightousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.
Know the TRUTH, it wii set you free!
Call on the Holy Spirit to give you wisdom, knowledge, and strength.
In Jesus precious name
Amen
God's plan for sexual
God's plan for sexual relationships is his ideal for his creation. Unfortunately, sin distorts the natural use of God's gifts. Sin often means not only denying God but also denying the way we are made. When people say that any sex act is acceptable as long as nobody gets hurt, they are fooling themselves. In the long run (and often in the short run) sin hurts people-individuals, families, whole societies. How sad it is that people who worship the things God made instead of the Creator so often destort and destroy the very things that claim to value. Homosexuality (to turn against or abandon natural relations of sex) was as widespread in Paul's day as it is in ours. Many Pagan practices encourage it. God is willing to recieve anyone who comes in him in faith and christians should love and accept others no matter what their background, Yet, homosexuality is strictly fobidden in Scripture (Leviticus 18:22) Homosexuality is considered an acceptable practice by many in our world today-even by some churches. But society does not set the standard for God's law. Homosexuals believe that thier desires are normal and they have a right to express them. But, God does not encourage us to fulfill all our desires (even normal ones). Those desires that violate his laws must be controlled. If you have these desires, you can and must resist acting upon them. Consciously avoid places or activities you know will kindle temptations. Don't underestimate the power of Satan to tempt you or potential for serious harm if you continue to yield to these temptations. God can and will forgive sexual sins just as he forgives other sins. Surrender yourself to God, asking him to show you the way out of sin and into the light of his freedom and his love. Prayer Bible study, and loving support of Christians in a Bible-believing Church can help you to gain strength to resist these powerful temptations. If you are already deeply involved in homosexuality behavior, seek help from a trustworthy professional, Christian counselor.
A Mother's Love
Being brought up all my life to believe homosexuality is a sin and being a Christian I was thrown into mental & spiritual termoil when I learned one of my son's is gay. He told me himself not knowing how I would react. I had suspected before then. I had time to think of my response knowing he was going to tell me something.
As his mother I knew I did not want to "disown" him. I love him beyond his sexual orientation because he is not only a human being, he is also a spiritual being. He is my child. I told him I would rather he not be gay. He understood this. I wanted him to know I loved him no matter what. If he were a criminal I would love him. I did not want my child to disown me. I did not want to alienate my child. I want my child in my life.
He told me of his struggle. This is how I chose to handle the situation. To accept him as he is and to love him. I will leave all the debates up to the debaters. Love is my only answer and I will let God be God. He has the answers and I do know He loves us more than we can ever comprehend.
I think because Christians have been gay bashers and negative in so many ways it has caused my son to become an athiest. I'm more concerned about this than his sexual orientation.
The Truth!!!
I am truly sorry for the pain you are receiving and I know how you feel.
I have a stepson who is gay and he is the nicest lovable person you can meet.
As a true Christian I know that he is not blameless in his spirit for it is an abomination .
This reverend is doing what satan is allowing him to do.
To deceive the children of the everlasting Father our Lord Jesus Christ.
Any Christian that is involved with "gay bashing" as this reverend so ungoddly puts it, is not to hurt or punish but to stand for the truth and obey at all times the words of our Holy Father and through the Holy Spirit from God conquor all things that are ungoddly in His eyes!!
This reverend and any others who speak homosexuality is accepted by our Lord is a speaker of satan and given to the doctrines of devils!
He brings humor and witt into his words of deceit and perjury and knows not the Heavenly Father our Lord is listening.
The Lord our God Jesus Christ died on the cross for all of our sins and with his blood,which He shed for many, we can all stand in front of Him as His children no longer a part of death, but of light and eternal love and happiness and peace, free from all sins because sin will be no more!
This reverend has based his complete article on the destruction of Soddom and Gommorrah and the other verses he says not to read because he has already explained that Soddom and Gommorah was destroyed by Gods angels because of the men of Soddom were inhospitable to them. But he did not tell you the truth!!
THE LORD GOD IS AGAINST ALL SEXUAL IMMORALITY
Gen 18:20 And the Lord said, Because the cry of Soddom and Gommorah is great, and because their sin is so grievious:
Gen 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
The cry of Soddom and Gommorah was so great and the sin so grievous that the Lord Himself came to investigate!!!
Jude !: 7 Even as soddom and Gommorah and the cities like manner,giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
! Corinthians 6: 9 Know you not that the unrightous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolators,nor adulterers, nor effiminite, nor abusers of themselves with mankind;
John1: 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrightousness.
Our Lord God loves all His children. We must pray for those who have wandered away from the light into darkness so that by the power of the Holy Spirit they may be returned.
I pray for the reverend Mark and all who speak ungoddliness to begin speaking the truth and return the lost child to the Father or be removed from His glory and cast into utter darkness.
Peace be with you
I agree with "The Truth"
May I say,Amen,Amen,and Amen!!!!!
The Truth! Thank you my brother
Your light will forever shine and goodness will abound in your life.
May the Father sanctify you throughout.
Peace be with you
Watching Christians Devour their Own...
It's very difficult to read through the responses to this blog without wondering where the love is in Christianity. (Christians eat their own apparently) When a Christian minister stands up for those who have been treated as strangers at the gate, how strange it is to see the "Christian" response be so hateful and infatuated with being "right!" There are some replies here that seem to usher in such arrogance that it's no wonder church membership is dwindling and people are finding Jesus outside of the church. One may start to believe that Jesus wouldn't step foot in any churches anymore were it not for people like Rev. Mark who are making sure that the doors are open to all, no exceptions.
In any case, I appreciate how you highlight the errors in using the Bible as authority for the discussion. How can the Bible be used to teach marriage principles on any level when the relationships "sanctioned" by the Bible involve treating women like property, marrying the help, offering up your daughters to be raped (sin of sodom?) and marrying 700 wives? Jesus wasn't even married, Paul seemed to be afraid of intimacy and some of the disciples are said to have left their wives and children. This point was well-stated by Mark (he added chapter and verse to boot). It is highly overlooked by the people responding and I think it's because they are uncomfortable with what their COVETED Bible says. (And what does the Bible say about coveting anyway?)
In the end, I would pose the question to all who read this post, "Why is it so important for you to be right?"
Taken with a little humility, Christianity may one day shake the dust of it's illogical, unloving, Biblically-uneducated fanatics and get back to some of the stuff Jesus seemed to have in mind and not the establishment that followed...
I'd say that as long as people like Rev. Mark are around, there is hope.
Many blessings,
Gail Dickert
www.facebook.com/homospirituality
Sad, and scary
I read EVERY word of this blog/article. Without a doubt it is WRONG and IMMORAL to bash any individual or group of people.
I consider myself a serious student of the Bible and encourage every individual who reads this article to read the Bible for themselves.
God only sanctions a sexual relationship between a man and his wife. Teaching or preaching that sexual sin is okay is not teaching the TRUTH in LOVE. For the record, sexual sin also includes adultery...it's wrong, no matter how you look at it.
The Good News is, we have a God who is faithful to forgive us if we repent and turn away from our sin.
I left the PCUSA church years ago because of this reckless way of handling God's Word - sadly, many Christians who attend church are satistied being spoon-fed and following leaders who clearly do not believe the Bible is God-breathed.
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires." 2 Timonthy 4:3
Respectfully Yours, Betsy Crawford
It is quite clear to me that
It is quite clear to me that people of any intelligence whatsoever do not judge others' identities. The rest are just using the Bible (or other "religious" texts) to support their prejudice. STOP using demons and goblins to justify your ignorance and start living in the real world; you look like a fool.
The Bible says if you call
The Bible says if you call anyone a fool you are in danger of hell fire.
Rev. Sandlin's Article
Any time I hear a writer or (false?) preacher proclaim that “these verses (whether Leviticus or Romans or I Corinthians or whatever) represent the viewpoints of people two or three thousand years ago who had NO concept of the things we know today that have been proven (?) scientifically”, then you may rest assured of one thing – they do not take the Bible seriously as the Word of God written, but as merely another human book from which we can excise anything we disagree with. To claim that “Paul had no concept of sexual orientation as we understand it today” is tantamount to saying “God Himself had no concept of sexual orientation as we understand it today”, if the Bible is truly the revealed word of our heavenly Father.
Rev. Sandlin’s failure to distinguish between which Levitical laws were ceremonial, which were civil or national and provided Israel with its unique identity in comparison to other nations, and which were of a clearly moral nature closely related to the Ten Commandments and therefore applicable for all time, is a sure sign of his misinterpretation (or at least misapplication) of the Scriptures. He also passes over the Creation account of the union of man and woman as irrelevant to the discussion of homosexuality, when it is in truth the MOST relevant passage of all, for it sets forth the most basic context of sexual relationships that God intended from the very beginning; ANYTHING apart from the “one man, one woman-only, and faithfulness in that relationship”, is to be regarded as out of accord with God’s will and purposes for humanity. The Bible only DESCRIBES other types of sexual deviance or variation, but never condones or pronounces approval of them.
Rev. Sandlin and his misguided interpretations, and those who are swayed by him or agree with him, are continuing the “proud” tradition of “bad yeast” in the leaven of the PCUSA that is tragically bringing about the downfall of a once-dynamic and influential denomination. Thankfully, God does not need the PCUSA for His Kingdom’s work to be done, for the day is fast approaching when the church body I grew up in and have served for many years will be all but irrelevant spiritually.
Peace and hope, my friends ...
Byron
The Truth!!!
No fool, I have the HOLY SPIRIT and the LOVE of my Everlasting Father Jesus Christ!!!
I can't belive that I am actually trying to tell people that say they believe in Jesus and His commandments that having sex with your same sex is wrong?
I was speaking to wake you up!!!
Not to insult you or degrade you in any way!!
Now I am silent!!
Amen
Thank you Rev. Sandlin!
Please accept a very personal and heartfelt "Thank you!" You have beautifully and succinctly summarized the scholarship regarding these verses in a way that is compelling, entertaining, and truly honest. I will be asking family members and friends to read and consider these words as we in North Carolina approach a destructive and unnecessary anti-gay ballot initiative which may make all domestic partner benefits and potential civil unions impossible and interfere with parental rights in a state which already prohibits same-sex marriage. I love you, Mark Sandlin.
I feel compelled to say this...
Even though I and most of my friends/family are heterosexual (not all)I forget how lucky I am that they are all tolerant, accepting people - until I see others commenting on something as Christ positive as this article with condemnation.
I feel so blessed to be part of a church that preaches tolerance and does not discriminate against anyone for who they love. It's a shame that so many other church leaders don't seem to encourage following Jesus' teachings of acceptance and forgiveness, because it looks as though more people are decidedly "unchristian" in their Christian beliefs :(
Those preaching hatred of homosexuality need to focus on the beam in their own eye. How many of you are divorced or have committed any number of other sins? Focus on yourself, your family and your church's sins and their forgiveness rather than preaching hatred that actually has nothing to do with religious beliefs. If there was not a single passage in the old testament that even vagualy seemed to speak against homosexuality, you would still try to justify your hate, because it is much more about your own fear of anyone different than yourself.
In a world filled with so much sin, how can anyone focus on one trait that Jesus never spoke against? And even if it was a sin, where is the unlimited forgiveness we all know God is capable of? Humans don't get to pick and choose what they believe God will deign to forgive, that is too far beyond man...How dare anyone claim to speak for God except Jesus!
I have children and I am much more concerned that they grow up to be good, moral men who treat others with love and tolerance, than who they will later fall in love with. I hope they find a single person who is worthy of them to love their entire life and commit to, hopefully legally in marriage- and I could care less what gender that person is. I hope I raise them to love God and themselves and put others first, and if they are gay I hope they can take messages like this post to heart and ignore those who hide behind their own interpretation of Christianity to hurt others.
Thank you!
Mark, I want to thank you for taking the time to create this exposition on homosexuality and the Bible. The fact of the matter is that homosexuality affects somewhere between 5-9% of the population and yet divorce and remarriage affect over 50% of us. I'm a divorced man who hopes to remarry someday - and it'd be hypocritical for me to be opposed to homosexuality. Indeed, it'd be scape-goating. (Note: I'm holding a mirror up to those who happen to allow for divorce and/or remarriage and who are anti-gay)
bless you and your work,
Roger, author of "Kissing Fish: christianity for people who don't like christianity" http://www.progressivechristianitybook.com
The Truth! Who are you?
Kissing Fish: Christianity for people who don't like Christianity.
If you don't like being a Christian then be a Kabaalist or an Islamist or an Buddha!!
Don't think that you can change any word of the Christian Bible and not be blotted out of the book of life!!
You or no one else will ever change the Holy Words of our God to fit their lifestyle.
You are drowning in sin and won't ask for forgiveness. You wallow in your sins of sexual immorality!
If you know the Father and have the Holy Spirit ask that all things displeasing to Him in your life be taken away!
If you have not the Spirit then ask the Father to save you and baptise you in His Spirit.
Don't ever ever try changing the Words of our Lord to fit your sinful life.
It's one thing to comit sins and another to wallow in them.
If you have to be gay lezbian TS or TG then become celibate so you will not be sexual immoral.
You can love without sex!
Ask your Father through the power of the Holy Spirit to help you with your uncontrolable tendancies.
Once you have committed an act of sexual immorality you have brought another soul into the picture.
Become celibate for Jesus Christ and His Kingdom and convince all your other brothers and sisters to do the same.
This will be a cleansing for you.
It sounds like I am chastising you doesn't it?
I am!
Peace be with you
haters only hate
Wow is all I can say! How can you look in the mirror and say im a good christian for my daddy told me so. You have NO love for your brother and are NOT humble before god. Remember sinner that you carry a double edged sword. Careful you do not cut yourself. God forgive me but I find it hard not to spit on the ground and curse you for your evil.
Bisexuality
There are obviously more important issues here than this but it is one which continues to bother me. Without personally taking one view or the other lets accept as a given that homosexuality vs. heterosexuality is NOT a choice but is inherent. It is nevertheless difficult for me to get around the concept that one can be simultaneously inherently homosexual AND heterosexual. The author even says at one point that Paul's statements re the issue would establish that it would be "unnatural behavior" for a homosexual to have sex with a heterosexual. It thus seems to me that to even use the term bisexual is a sell out and to casually group it in the acronymic term used by activists is a total cop out regarding "by choice behavior" which can be characterized as sinful.
Bisexuality
There are obviously more important issues here than this but it is one which continues to bother me. Without personally taking one view or the other lets accept as a given that homosexuality vs. heterosexuality is NOT a choice but is inherent. It is nevertheless difficult for me to get around the concept that one can be simultaneously inherently homosexual AND heterosexual. The author even says at one point that Paul's statements re the issue would establish that it would be "unnatural behavior" for a homosexual to have sex with a heterosexual. It thus seems to me that to even use the term bisexual is a sell out and to casually group it in the acronymic term used by activists is a total cop out regarding "by choice behavior" which can be characterized as sinful.
Great insight. Thanks for
Great insight. Thanks for doing this piece. I have shared it.
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